Episode 35: Lisa Ketelsen, Covestro

Our guest on episode 35 of CW Talks: The Composites Podcast is Lisa Ketelsen, head of thermoplastic composites and CEO of Maezio at Covestro (Shanghai, China). Ketelsen, who grew up in Germany, is based in Shanghai and manages Covestro’s Maezio product line, which comprises carbon fiber tapes with a polycarbonate resin matrix.

Ketelsen talks about her career at Covestro, the evolution of the Maezio product line, Maezio’s attributes and applications, and how she sees thermoplastic composites evolving in the marketplace.

Transcript of Lisa Ketelsen interview with CW Talks, recorded Oct. 21, 2020

Jeff Sloan (JS): Hi, everyone and welcome to CW Talks: The Composites Podcast. I'm Jeff Sloan, editor-in-chief of CompositesWorld. This is Episode 35 and my guest today is Lisa Ketelsen, head of thermoplastic composites and CEO of Maezio at covestro. Lisa is based in Shanghai and manages Covestro’s Maezio product line, which comprises carbon fiber tapes with a polycarbonate resin matrix. I will talk to Lisa about her path to Covestro, the Maezio product line, Maezio’s attributes and applications and how she sees thermoplastic composites evolving in the marketplace. Hi, Lisa, and welcome to CW Talks.

Lisa Ketelsen (LK): Hi, Jeff, good to be here. Thank you for the invite.

JS: Tell me a little bit about your role at Covestro and what you do there.

LK: Well, I have been in in my current role as the head of global thermoplastic composites business since almost a year, and our brand being being Maezio. My role here is to build and steer our global business. And if you will, from the constellation, it's a little bit like being the CEO of a startup within a multinational company. I am based in Shanghai, this is where our business headquarters is, and also one of our largest innovation centers. However, since we have a striving and rising customer base, also in Asia, but we also have team members across the globe, in the US and Taiwan, and in Germany as well. Yeah, so that's that's our, you know, business that we're running for a couple of years.

JS: How many folks do you have working for you within your area of business development?

LK: Yeah, our Maezio crew, as I like to call them. So we are roughly 90 people, including our production side, the R&D team, the application development team, the marketing guys, including, you know, supply chain, product management, and so on. So the whole crew is about 90 people. And, like, five years ago, when when the company the little company was acquired, we were nine people. And so we grew quite fast.

JS: Okay, so lots of growth here. Covestro was previously — I don't know how to phrase this — it was previously Bayer or part of Bayer. Near as I can tell, it's the only place you've worked since finishing university. I'm wondering how much composites experience you had prior to your current position. And how did you come to this job? What drew you to it?

LK: Yes, I've been with with Bayer, or Covestro if you will, for 15 years. It's been quite a bit of an enjoyable ride. And I think, you know, how I came to that position, that's when I relocated here to Shanghai to specifically deal with thermoplastic composites business. And I think throughout the years, I've been very lucky working in different positions to bring that holistic perspective into the business, right. I'm in the early stages of my career within business development and marketing functions myself for the construction industry, so it's always been quite technical. Um, and I really love that it's really hands on, it's really real, and that goes for composites as well, right? And later in my career I was in charge of building new business entities from scratch, I have worked in procurement, so basically, on the other side of the table. So when that opportunity came up, or the question was there to head up this growth venture, what we call it here within our company, you know, a startup within the company, I think, you know, both sides thought this is quite a good match with the kind of technical background that I bring, but also this building up of a business, which is something that we are engaged with, right? Really bringing new products to market, thinking about the next chapter of product portfolios, building stronger teams and increasing the team capacity and also by expanding the business. Yeah, and that's what led me here and I'm quite happy to work with a fantastic team of people and they all have quite a footprint in engineering and R&T. So it's quite a strong technical crowd and they really blend well together. So that's a lot of fun.

JS: That's great. I detect a German accent, and given Bayer’s history, I assume that you come from Germany. Where did you go to school?

LK: Well, so sorry, I am half Brazilian, half German. But I finished my high school in Germany. I was born and raised, if you will, in Brazil. I then went to high school in Germany as well as university and got my MBA itself in the UK, and yeah, and now Shanghai is on the table, right?

JS: Let's talk more about Maezio which you mentioned a few minutes ago. And so I'd like to start by just describing for audience what Maezio is. And then I have a couple questions about the material itself. So what is Maezio?

LK: Well first of all, it's the brand name for a polycarbonate-based thermoplastic composite at this very moment. And, and yeah, so we created that brand two years ago because you know, we've been developing and also doing a lot of IP in the first place around that product and bringing that new product to market. And what we do basically in the thermoplastic composite space is we focus on unidirectional tape production, carbon fiber-based, as well as laminates. So I think this is the sexy part of the idea is that beyond the tapes, our capabilities allow us to really go in discussions with our customers around what we call tunability, right? They say I need 15 degrees, 45 degrees this way, 90, zero 30 degrees, how can we do that right? And this is where the magic comes in and this is where where Maezio — and that's where the name stands from, ‘maestro” — where the composition and the tunability comes from.

JS: As I'm sure you know, thermoplastic composites are not new, but I think Maezio may be unique in the market and in the fact that it uses polycarbonate. And this is I guess not surprising given Covestro’s history with polycarbonate, and I'm wondering what is the greatest advantage that polycarbonate conveys to the applications that Maezio typically is used in.

LK: The greatest advantages that our Maezio UD tape and sheet bring come from the resin, a very different resin in this case. You’re right, PA and PP, other options, have been on the market for a long time. But polycarbonate translates to our materials and brings great advantage in the composites as it combines the toughness, the stiffness with a good surface quality, right? It's it's easier to realize Class A surfaces. We do a lot of work on different coating solutions, different surfaces solutions. So if you're really looking for a combination of these things, then our materials come in play. But then there's also, depending on what you compare it to, there's also the the advantages of the dimensional stability. In comparison to other polymers, for example, we don't have so much problems with moisture absorption. So it does have advantages overall in the market. It's not the largest application range, polycarbonate composites, but but we do see that there is a fair growth and then, you know, we wanted to participate in creating that role. And the other part is that especially when you go into electronics, that we can reach flame retardant properties. And this is a big reason for many players that already use polycarbonate today, to look into into solutions to combine it with with our raw materials composites. And, yeah, well that's not to say that we stopped there with polycarbonate only. We have built our assets around polycarbonate in the beginning, yes, but we also have other capabilities and also those R&D capabilities to further explore the wider product portfolio. And also to allow us to use different resin types also and fiber types, because not every application demands the same answer. And so we're looking forward to that.

JS: I wonder if there's a cost benefit as well with polycarbonate. When you think about thermoplastic composites, you usually think about PEEK and PEKK and other materials that can be relatively expensive. Polycarbonate, I think, arguably, is more of a commodity material compared to some other thermoplastics. And I wonder if that conveys a cost advantage to any of the products that are manufactured using this material?

LK: Um, yes, it certainly can convey, say, a product advantage versus certain materials. Oftentimes, though, when when we talk for specific applications to our customers, it is then not only the question of the resin, because if you blend it with with carbon fiber, the carbon fiber costs will still prevail. So then it's more a question of how how potent is the sheet or the laminate or the tape to bring the overall part costs down? And then we're talking about, you know, cost performance. How well does it downstream save us time and money? For example, on coating applications, where in our case we have seen that there is potential for saving on certain coating efforts? So we like to think about it, and looking at the entire part and thinking it through where does it make sense, really from a final part standpoint, to bring the cost down. And the resin itself, polycarbonate itself is commoditized in some aspects, but for example, when you go in direction of flame retardant it gets a little bit more complicated, there's a lot of research involved. And so data really depends the  cost of the part. This is what we go for most.

JS: Is Maezio standardized on any particular carbon fiber or particular glass fiber? Or are you agnostic and offer a variety of options?

LK: No, we are agnostic. So the way we designed our processes is that we have capabilities to change and to see what other options we have, right? But I mean, for the sake of simplicity, in the beginning, we stick to some good or some very compatible fibers that work well in our process. But that's a starting point, right? I think, overall, we are very happy also to explore fibers for different fiber types, from also different partners. We were agnostic to that.

JS: One of the challenges of manufacturing thermoplastic tape, at least in markets like aerospace, is that the quality of the tape is sometimes not quite up to the same level as say, thermoset tape, which has a longer history and more development behind it. And I'm wondering how Covestro manages that, if that's a challenge for manufacturing the Maezio material or you know what is the technology that's used to produce these tapes?

LK: Well. we use a technology that was basically implemented for many different trade-offs from the textile industry, from the polycarbonate industry. And so so we kind of compiled our technology around what was the thing on the market. And then obviously we did some iterations and tweaked it to really improve over time. Where we are right now with our current portfolio — I mean aerospace is a different matter — we are currently focused on sports, footwear, electronics, automotive and consumer goods. You know, to capture these markets to understand where we come from to go from smaller parts to bigger parts, right? And while we do that, improving, which doesn't mean that the product is not good, the product is very, very well suited for for those applications. I think that aerospace is just a different matter. And then you also will have a discussion around is PC the right resin in that space, right? So that comes on top. But no, but generally speaking, yes, I mean, manufacturing really, really extremely perfect tape is definitely difficult. And we have seen many players failing or not being able to to provide that to our customers. But so far, the latest successes that we had in the market, where we brought it from a pilot product from a pilot tape to a mass-produced tape, going from small to large scale, we have managed to to really bring the quality to the table that that was expected or even exceeded that. So we're extremely proud to have done that. But yeah, it takes a lot of work. And it takes a lot of learning curve and iteration with these partners as well.

JS: You mentioned applications, I want to talk a little bit about that now. And you also mentioned the sporting goods market. A frequent use of Maezio,  at least in the last few years, has been as a carbon fiber insert in athletic shoes. And I think the most recent shoe that came in the market that uses this this museum material is in the KT six basketball shoe, which is manufactured by Anta. And I believe it's marketed initially just in Asia. I'm wondering why this is such an attractive application for Maezio.

LK: Well we have been developing that particular product with Anta for two years and I think many, many players do develop such performance products for quite a while. And that's that's not surprising. So, Covestro actually has been in the footwear industry for quite a long time with a variety of materials, right? So, polyurethane foam. thermoplastic, polyurethane textiles, 3d printing, so, my colleagues left and right, they already have a lot of touch points with shoe manufacturers. Thermoplastic composites then is sort of the next addition to that portfolio where we are as as a company. We also try to have holistic discussions with the designers at an early stage. As such, we do have an existing market access that helps. Yeah, but why composites in that specific case? I mean Anta you know is really at the forefront of going into performance shoes. They are leading here in Asia, their development team is just incredibly innovative. They're incredibly hungry to develop new products for their customers eventually, and their requirements and on high-performance materials is really high. So when we when we went into into the discussions, why Maezio? How does that make sense? You know, I think the answer is what I talked before about the high degree of tunability. We had a lot of iteration rounds together with Anta to really figure out what is the optimum layup design for the shank. So that we could precisely tune the stiffness to what Anta specifically wanted for that basketball shoe to take up the torsion forces and to allow stiffness in one direction and flexibility in another. So really going beyond the typical zero/90 degree layer. And we literally over a long period of time, we played around with layups and until we came back with a perfect product here. And for every partner customer we're really working along the lines of the shoe industry. We're working on different performance, cost options, and seeing what they want to achieve and with the athletes running the test then redoing it again. And then the cost part of of the performance sort of side, is to bring this on large scale, right? So we literally develop, develop, develop on the pilot scale. And then we brought it to mass production, which is then attractive for a player like Anta, with millions and millions of pairs of shoes, to move away from the traditional epoxy-based thermosets and scale up to mass-produced millions of pairs of product that are exactly the same as the other pair of shoe.

JS: Can you can you describe for us what the shank is? What approximately are its dimensions? and what does it do for the basketball, I guess not just for the shoe, but for the player? And can you describe for us how it's manufactured?

LK: Yeah, so in terms of dimensions, it's — well now you probably want to have it in inches — but in terms of dimension, it's like 15 centimeters times sometimes 5 [centimeters]. And I think like 30% of the shank itself you can actually see. So the customer can touch and feel it and 70% is sort of hidden in a semi-transparent sole. That was one of the requirements also to give the give not only the performance character to that product, but also the the aesthetics. And what does it do for the basketball player? So Anta was very precise about their needs here to combine stiffness and torsion properties of that material with flexibility of like limited flexibility and bending, but it was really to keep the player safe when they do fast movements left and right. And so, that was the huge safety and stiffness topic focused on torsion. And then the aesthetics that that enter by various iterations of design that they really wanted also to show the carbon fiber and  yet not not compromise on the performance of the of the shank itself.

JS: You mentioned high-speed or high-volume manufacturing. How is that achieved in this application then?

LK: Well, like in every other project, there is a time where where you prototype, and then at one point Anta closed the phase of designing and said, ‘Okay, now, we know we need to prepare the shoes and provide the right the right amount at certain specific points and times.’ And we just you know, we brought it onto the mass production lines, produced it, then it was sent to the molders who then really gave it this Anta-specific design. In this case, so it was then thermoformed and and then it went it went further down downstream to being built into the shoe and into the stores.

JS: Is the layup of the UD tapes a fairly automated process?

LK: Yeah, then in that specific case, yes. When we talk about mass producing, we have basically a three-step approach, right? We produce the tapes, then we have an assembly line, basically our tapes are then cut by robots and placed at the different angles that are needed. And then we bring those different angled tapes, if you will, tape rolls, we bring them onto our lamination line and a continuous process and cut the sheets in the size that our customer needs and ship them out. So it's fully automated.

JS: Thinking beyond the the shoe shanks, wondering what other applications and markets you see as a good fit for Maezio and in what makes those attractive?

LK: Today, where we are and thinking about a polycarbonate-based business, we have four key segments that we tackle, and you also see it in our customer customer base. Sports and footwear as one, electronics, automotive and consumer goods, including like luggage applications. And so those are the four areas. Some have shorter life cycles, some have longer life cycles, which is a good blend of bringing different product types also to the market from from our our side. But all of them have in common that they have specific needs of, you know, bringing together that idea of stiffness with lightweight and also, you know, what we call ‘beautiful’ with a requirement on the surface, right? That's kind of the commonality amongst the segments that we're looking into.

JS: You just said a ‘beautiful surface.’ I think that's a reference to a point you made earlier about the surface quality possible with polycarbonate, is that right?

LK: Exactly, yeah. I can give you an example in the automotive industry. So we have our production-ready solutions, you know that the electric vehicle company, Neo, which is, you know, an EV [electric vehicle] company here in China. They're growing quite fast and then leading the way when it comes to innovation in the space here as a local car manufacturer. And they were really looking for a wheel blade that not only, you know, endures the the high speed and the chemical resistance on what you need on a wheel blade. But they were really looking also for that part being a design landmark and the starting point to then create like a sports look for their brand as well. So they had a quite, quite high requirements on the surface. Yeah, quite strong ideas about how the fiber can be seen in the particular parts so that it really shows that it's a carbon fiber-based product, but also but at the same time having a Class A surface. And with a couple of iterations on the design, we really made it happen that the finishing really looks pretty good. And that is a car exterior part with a specific coating that we added on top because they wanted to have a specific matte look on there as well. Um, and yeah, and from that we took it into the car interior and then we have been developing car interior concepts where it's about, for example, it's about an ultra thin table for future car where you know, rather than use the car interior not only to go from A to B, but to work or to utilize your your laptop or you know have it as a also certain degree of resting space. And we develop that with Dr. Schneider at Engel around the technology. How to build it maximum slim and a really, really good surface that complements the performance of the product itself. So you know going from the car exterior to interior and it's incredibly hard to really implement these standards in the automotive industry with with thermoplastic, but it's but with polycarbonate. Luckily it is possible and we can leverage a lot of knowledge that we already have in the car business.

JS: When you say it's difficult to establish standards, what do you mean by that?

LK: Well, it's because we have a product with our polycarbonate carbon fiber-based UD tape or laminate, we have a product that is fairly new. So, you do have to have capabilities and knowledge around what coating types work well, how do you make the surface finishing, and how do you make it most cost-efficient, right? How do you use the laminates and thermoform a part or a table or what have you in the current area? Like what means and ways do you have to make the surface really perfect and aesthetically pleasing so that the car designer is really wowed by it, right? And later, also the customer. So there's a lot of questions that with a standard application you would probably not ask because that knowledge is already there. While in the development of these products we have learned a lot, and we have partnered with key players in the industry to find that out. And now we have the answers, right. But definitely, it took us also a bit of time to find the optimum solution there. And now we're equipped.

JS: So basically, because Maezio is relatively young, as a material, there's not much history behind it. And so the amount of experience with this material in the market is limited. And so you're doing a fair amount of development as these these products are developed as well.

LK: Yeah, development downstream and in the sense of the application, right? And we often times find, irrespective of the industry, we often find that the value chain is not as mature as maybe for a thermoset resin. That's right. And therefore we put a lot of effort into finding the right partners to work with, to share and build up that experience to get into final parts. And we have found a lot of good partners that are really innovative bringing new ideas. But yeah, it's definitely something that we we focused on over the last years. And we'll keep focusing on the future. To find the optimum solution for customers really demands is that we do partner up in the value chain. And I think it's a good thing, because this is also where innovation comes from. And it helps both sides also to understand the new material classes. And it also gives us a bit of a sneak peek, if you will, for what we need to watch out for the moment we develop a completely new resin, right? Or we bring in a new resin type to the market. And we already know how to tackle that. So that's the advantage there to build those partnerships along the line.

JS: You mentioned the wheel application. And it sounds like that wheel application was leveraging the aesthetic of carbon fiber as well as you know, the good surface finish, the Class A finish. But the table application you referenced on the interior didn't sound like it was leveraging the aesthetic as much as it was leveraging the strength and stiffness properties of the materials. I'm wondering, when you interact with customers, how much pull you're getting on the aesthetic side of carbon fiber versus the performance or structural side of carbon fiber?

LK: I love the question because I keep asking my team as well when they meet with customers. And it really depends. In the case of NEOs, the CMF team, the designers were strongly pushing for a new feel a new look and a new design element, right? And when it came to the table, they were looking for a very thin, very stiff table that takes takes on 50 kilos of load, without bending too much. And at the same time, being super aesthetically pleasing, right? With even two types of surfaces that that we match to, one part is pitch black and one part of the table really shows the fiber. So that element came in as well. The requirement of focus, let's say, came from a different angle, because it came in the first place more from a functional functionality standpoint. Whereas on the other side, on the example of NEO and the wheel blade, the designers were really trying to set set an example in the industry here. And that's to say that we're agnostic when talking more to the engineering teams or to the designer teams. I think both have a strength and both have a perspective. And both discussions lead to the same discussion: Okay, what performance can the product bring? How do I process it? And how can I leverage that in comparison to other parts in my vehicle or in my shoe or what have you. So we are happy to speak both languages, if you will, the technical one or the design one. Also in our team, we speak those both languages are quite equipped to go both directions as well.

JS: Interesting, it's an interesting dichotomy. I want to talk a little bit about geography? I know you're based in Shanghai, as you referenced earlier, Covestro was obviously targeting the Asian market with the Maezio material. And I'm wondering what makes this product such a good fit for that market? And what other geographic markets do you consider important to Covestro for Maezio use?

LK: In light of the pandemic, this was an even more exciting question. Well, look, I think our starting point was to focus on those four strategic segments, right? E&E, consumer consumer goods, automotive and sports footwear. A lot of a lot of the activities also take place here in Asia. However, when we are in exploration of other areas, for example, health care and the health care space, we also have a footprint in the U.S. when it comes to those dynamics. So we started off from a market side here in Asia, because the Covestro business has the headquarters here, but also for the key segments of where where we want to play, we see a lot of traction here in Asia. And then we have a larger team in Germany, which is has put also a lot of focus on both consumer goods, but also particularly our automotive because of the large German automotive brands as well, it was just where the footprint sort of started off. And in Germany we also have our production side, and we have the largest R&D center for our Maezio products in Germany. But that, you know, that is a bit of a technicality. Because the most important bit is where our customers and where markets are. And for that matter, also to have a footprint in stronger footprint and E&E. We also established a role in Taiwan, right? Because also in especially in the Indian consumer electronics space, as well, where many decisions are made and product developments are kicked off. And then in the U.S., we also have market development and application development activities. And in these areas where we need more footprint in terms of products, we are looking into forming partnerships with distributors to be willing to have a better access to the markets, as well as a longer value chain. So we are we're presented in quite some countries, but really, indeed, this footprint here in Asia.

JS: And you mentioned the pandemic a minute ago. I'm wondering what your assessment is of the pandemic's impact on the kind of work that you do, given that you do have 90 employees scattered around the world? What is your assessment of how that's playing out in different markets?

LK: Well, the way we've been experiencing the activities in the markets over the last seven, eight months, first slowed down in China significantly, right, for two or three months. And then all of a sudden, I mean, I wouldn't have expected that, but all of a sudden, it picked up here in China, particularly, like there was no tomorrow. It's the innovation potential here and the willingness of China to iterate to bring new products to market is, generally speaking, incredibly high. But I had a feeling that, you know, after the pandemic, in around April, May, you know, after the impact of the pandemic went down a little bit, and people could go out and meet customers and so on, then it really picked up incredibly fast. So that was quite impressive to see. Whereas in Europe and in the U.S., many of the discussions that we have initiated are still ongoing. That's the good part. However, I do expect that there will be certain delays. But in a business where development cycles are a bit longer, then it's a bit of a waiting game, especially in those two regions, if you will. But I still see everyone being willing to bring innovation, to look into into what what has been done before, and doing it differently. Thermoplastic composite as solution is still there. But I see that China is just switching very fast to say Okay, let's do this now. And that is a very interesting dynamic. And well, it helps definitely that at least within China itself, as a country, that is currently closed, like every other country too, it helps that we can travel within the countries without many restrictions at this point in time. So I do believe if things — fingers crossed — if things stay as they stay, that China will definitely pick up faster than other regions. That would be my my humble guesstimate, based on what I've seen over the last eight months. But yeah, I wish I wish I could foresee what happens in the future. But it was just, you know, best guess, based on what I've seen so far.

JS: I want to get back to Maezio real quick. You mentioned a few minutes ago the possibility of other resin systems being developed. And I'm wondering what the plans are for this material for the next few years. Are there other applications kind of outside the reach of Maezio right now that you think can be captured with changes in chemistry? And what kind of evolution do you expect with this material?

LK: I think our our first and foremost priority over the next couple of years is to grow in the key segments that I mentioned. And then there's a couple of directions we to want to be heading, right? So one is optimizing our material even further in terms of how can we make it even lighter. How could we make it even thinner, how could we make even stiffer tape, so fooling around with with with the material that we have today and making them even better or offering within that range of different portfolio. Talking about surface, right? Looking into different surface, surface classes, surface qualities, be it Class A, be it a different textures, being completely different effects that, you know, some some designers always give us. Some give us insights as to what what they would love to see. And then we think along these lines, and we do some research ourselves of how to how to realize that. So we do see a lot of traction on that surface part too. And then since polycarbonate has good flame retardancy in performance, we also want to to explore the research or expand our research in that direction. And to really see if we can leverage from what we do today in electronics, maybe go a little bit, well, let's not call it automotive, but let's call it mobility, transportation area and so on. That would be sort nurturing what what we have today. So that's around what we what we have today and making it even more sexy for the markets. But yeah, but beyond that, we want to see Maezio evolve to meet the demands of a broader range of applications within these segments, right? And responding to different needs. What I mean with that is really looking into resin types such as TPU — we have done a lot of traction in the market on first development types that we had there. Looking into glass fiber types. What can glass fiber/PC or glass fiber/TPUs do, for example? And yeah, so that's sort of the next natural step we want to be taken. But I guess overall, one important aspect here for us is that we don't necessarily want to do it all ourselves or in house. We are really actively working with partners in the industry to find the right solution combining knowledge so that we can be faster together optimized for the needs of our customers. And we'd like to do that by really enhancing and going forward in the three regions — the U.S. and Europe and Asia. Really going much more in depth also into into partnerships and collaborations and seeing what what opportunities we can leverage together.

JS: With when you say partnerships, what kind of organizations or companies to have in mind?

LK: Well, it could be alone, it could be along the value chain itself. It could be with molders, with coating companies, with slitting companies, you know, what have you when it comes to processing. It could be down the road equipment, like machine manufacturers. But there's also the direction of additive manufacturing, where we see a lot of traction. So also there is a lot of innovation potential in that field that we believe we can work on together. And well, and on the angle of materials, right, there's tremendous composites companies out there that work with that with textiles. And then we are talking about the multi-material approach, right? How can we combine our solution meaningfully with another company's solution that has maybe different fiber, different resin types or different finishing and so on? So that's a little bit more down the road, but we are we're open to exploring that as well.

JS: Well, it sounds like you are busy, and you will be busy for quite a while.

LK: Well, I hope so. Yeah. I hope so.

JS: Alright, Lisa. I want to thank you for joining me today on CW Talks. I really appreciate you speaking with me.

LK: Well, thank you, Jeff, and I appreciate your invitation. And I really love those talks and I really love what CW is doing. So I am happy to be here today. And I wish you all the best for the coming weeks in the U.S. And I hope that we can catch up fairly soon.